New ?

[Constable Dan]

In talking with a N.C state police office he talked about the home land act.
that allows all peace office on or office duty and Ret. from duty to Cary fire arm with them 24/7 in the US. but not in some cities ??

now all we talked about this is now clear as mud !!!:angry:

[topcop38]

as a sworn constable (law enforcement officer) you are authorized to carry a firearm. you are not authorized to carry at any time while doing work for the courts until you go through the proper training.
this is one of the gray areas and i'm sure someone will argue this point but in my opinion you can carry anywhere in PA unless working for the courts (as mentioned above).
when it comes to LEOSA thats another area up for interpretation. i feel that we fall under this and therefore would be permitted to carry anywhere in the US and its entities. before doing so, for my own protection, i would contact the attorney general or the head of the state police in each state to verify their authorization to cover my own *ss.
i know this has been discussed before and another member did this and every state said they had no problem with it.

does anyone know what happened to the PA constable that was arrested in NYC for carrying a few months back? how did that turn out?

[mike_j]

as a sworn constable (law enforcement officer)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned on any of the forums the fact that PCCD added as a first page in this years continuing ed instruction, their opinion that constables are NOT law enforcement officers.

[Jcop32]

Well your correct!, but were certified collectors for the courts! we as we all know that if we don't serve those courts papers then PCCD won't get to collect that 5.00 fee for continueing ed classes as we won't see any of that money from the 11 millions that are in the fund to help better us... what a shame and yes they don't want to admit we are in the law enforcement field, they just see us a process servers for them... money maker to there restricted constable fund which we have no say how the money is spent.....SAD it a crime.

[topcop38]

i think PCCD should be told that their opinion means nothing when it comes to law. if i have an opinion about a particular law does that make it not valid?
its in black and white. who do they think they are?
sounds like they are overstepping their bounds.

[JetTroop]

Are you guys talking about Federal Law HR 218? If so, there are no city exemptions...including North Carolina. The law itself, while far reaching is VERY basic. I'll skip posting the retired part....

As you read this, there are two things you need to understand.

1. Do you fit the definition of a law enforcement officer? I'm not saying, you as a PA State Constable do or don't fit that definition or that I think you are or are not considered law enforcement officers. What's important is that by your duties, do you fit what HR 218 defines as one?

2. If you are defined as a LEO by the statue (you fit the definition), then you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon in another state like mine (NC and SC) as a private citizen with a concealed carry permit. Meaning you have to adhere to all the laws as a private citizen with a permit. You are not considered a law enforcement officer in another state like you would be in your home state. For instance, as a LEO in SC, I can carry my weapon pretty much anywhere. As a LEO in PA, when you travel to SC, you can carry wherever a private citizen with a CCW permit is allowed and that list is more restrictive then where I can carry as a LEO. Make sense?

I think your bigger issue is if your state defines you as "law enforcement officer" by HR 218 standards. Typically this ruling will come form your Attorney General as the highest ranking law enforcement official or the person who writes opinions on legal rulings.

Hopefully I'm not way off base to your original post.

SEC. 2. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926A the following:

`Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

`(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified law enforcement officer' means an employee of a governmental agency who--

`(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;

`(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;

`(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency;

`(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;

`(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

`(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

`(d) The identification required by this subsection is the photographic identification issued by the governmental agency for which the individual is employed as a law enforcement officer.

`(e) As used in this section, the term `firearm' does not include--

`(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);

`(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and

`(3) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).'.

(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926A the following:

`926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers.'.

http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html

[ConstableChuck]

Pennsylvania Code § 21.1. Definitions

LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER —A sheriff, deputy sheriff, constable, deputy constable, detective, police officer of this Commonwealth, or any political subdivision, school district, or municipal authority thereof.

[JetTroop]

Pennsylvania Code § 21.1. Definitions

LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER —A sheriff, deputy sheriff, constable, deputy constable, detective, police officer of this Commonwealth, or any political subdivision, school district, or municipal authority thereof.
Just remember that HR-218 is federal law and only what they (Feds) consider a law enforcement officer, is only what I can consider one in regards to the nationwide carry law in my state. It's not feasible for me to know what each state defines at one, only what the Feds do. Again, this is ONLY in relation to carrying a concealed weapon and has no effect outside of that.

Basically look at section C from 1 to 6.

`(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified law enforcement officer' means an employee of a governmental agency who-- This is important. North Carolina has private police. Full law enforcement officers but they don't work for a government agency and thus....aren't covered under this law.

`(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest; I think by PA law, you have statutory powers of arrest, from what I've read here right? So, you need to have powers of arrest and one of the other listed duties...prevention, detection, investigation, prosecution, or incarceration of any person in violation of law.

`(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm; By PA law, are constables allowed to carry firearms or not? If so, you are covered.

`(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency; Self explanatory.

`(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm; Regularly would mean yearly.

`(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and Self explanatory.

`(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm. Domestic violence...the usual.

You also must have an ID card identifying you as a law enforcement officer. One last important thing.

[LawDawg]

Hey Guys,
Just felt I needed to chime in here. I personally have spoken to several different federal and state agencies both here in PA and in other states. The issue with Constables carrying in other states becomes a problem when you don't follow OTHER rules for each individual state. We DO qualify for H.R. 218 according to PSP and the AG's Office (I spoke to PSP personally-the A.G.'s office was from a trusted source), but even PSP had a trooper thrown in jail in NJ as he was carrying personally and had his weapon loaded with HOLLOWPOINTS and he got into a situation where he actually had to fire the weapon. The issue there was that ONLY LEO's certified by NEW JERSEY as LEOs in their state may carry HOLLOWPOINTS in their weapons. All visitors carrying "personal" weapons to the "Garden State" MUST carry FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) ammunition or be slapped with this particular juridictional issue (from what I was directly advised).
This is just one example of where H.R. 218 was fully in effect (as the trooper wasn't charged with carrying a weapon illegally--just illegal use of said ammo) but state or "local" rules hung him. Keep this in mind.
Also a note: ANYONE carrying out of PA should do themselves a favor and search for "HR 218, The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004" on the internet. Once you find the entire law in the original text, save it. Then print out a copy and take it with you (to wherever you are going) along with your gun, badge and Constable ID (the one from PCCD which says that you are OR are not FIREARMS CERTIFIED)--This will avoid any issues being brought to light by an LEO from another state who simply isn't in the know. You should also take it upon yourself to find out if there are any "extras" you should know about like the issue in NJ. Ignorance isn't an acceptable defense. If we want to be treated like professionals we need to act like it.

[ConstableChuck]

The PCCD Card while known in PA is probably not known outside of PA, in my opinion it does not resemble an ID Card issued by a Law Enforcement Agency, and if you present that card to an out of State LEO they may call PCCD, what will PCCD tell them ? I guess it depends on who they talk to, maybe they will say that we are independent process servers, are the staff at PCCD educated about the PA Statutes that define Constables as Peace Officers and LEO's, I doubt it, do you want to entrust your freedom to the staff at PCCD who know little about Constables outside of Act 44 ? Not me.

Constables hold a Public Office, there is no law that says that office can't issue it's own ID Card, my suggestion is have your own ID Card made with the name of your office ie: (Office of Constable, Springfield Township - Warren County), have your picture, title as well as an address and phone number on the back of the card and carry that ID Card and the PCCD ID Card together just to be on the safe side.

If anyones interested I can get these cards custom made, their designed similar to a Driver License, they have a bar code and bar strip for extra security.

These cards are not meant to mimic PCCD cards, they are simply a specific ID Card identifying where you hold office.

[topcop38]

i agree that PCCDs cards aren't very professional looking. my Act 235 card looks more professional. some states don't even know what a constable is.
and chuck is right about relying on PCCD to answer for us. they are the ones saying we are not LEOs. what do you think would happen if an agency from another state called PCCD. their answer will be that we are not LEOs. guess we're up the creek without a paddle.
we will have to rely on the card issued to us. as for having one made up it might be a good idea but is it a legally valid card?
i'm not arguing that its not but i think i would rather hear it from an "official" source first.

[ConstableChuck]

Whether it's legally valid depends on the purpose it's being used for, it would NOT be a substitute for the PCCD Card when it comes to verifying whether or not a Constable is certified to perform judicial duties or certified to carry a firearm while performing any judicial duties.

For instance just because someone is act 120 certified does not mean they are a Police Officer, someone could get act 120 but never get hired by a PD, in which case they were never a Police Officer.

What many people don't realize is that Constables in PA have a dual role, we are elected as a local Peace Officer for the Township, Borough or Ward where we hold office, this is the foundation and purpose of the office we hold and no certification is required to serve in that capacity, our secondary role which requires certification pursuant to Act 44 is serving as an officer of the court system.

The PCCD is only responsible for providing training and certification pursuant to Act 44, they are not responsible for teaching us anything about the office we hold as a local peace officer and are not required to know about the statutes that define us as LEO's.

As elected official's that hold the office of Constable we have the ability to issue ID Cards for the Office we hold, just like you can have business cards made up, you could also hire staff (other than a deputy) on your own authority without anyones permission, and you could issue ID cards to your staff, as long as the ID cards truthfully represent the office you hold they are valid for any purpose people choose to accept them for.

[ConstableChuck]

Each State does things differently, in Rhode Island Constables are licensed Process servers, they are not elected officials, LEO's or Peace Officers nor can they make arrests, if you get stopped while carrying in RI and tell them your a Constable you better be able to explain the difference between Constables in PA and RI as well as have an ID Card that proves you are an elected official, the PCCD ID Card says nothing about us being elected officials or LEO's or Peace Officers, I wouldn't carry out of state under HR 218 expecting to convince anyone of LEO status by presenting the PCCD Card.

[Jcop32]

Thats why you always carry a copy of your election and court certifiacation papers in your wallet or badge case to show your elected.

[ConstableChuck]

That certainly wouldn't hurt, to go even further I would say also have a copy of the statutes that define Constables as LEO's and Peace officers,if you get stopped while carrying out of state having a quality ID card may prevent you from having to delve into to a complete lesson on PA Constables and presenting all kinds of papers.

[Constable Dan]

I did not know all the crap that I started in asking a ??? sry. I pulled HR 218 and read it man ! . Pa. law states the we are LIO! but we only serve the courts and get paid for that.Then why are we in the same class as LIO if we are not ?. The pccd will not tell me anything but your a constable and that we serve the courts only!. by no means m I trying to be a police office or like to be one did the in the Navy they have my up most respect but not for me now at my age 49. form what I read in HR 218 yes we can carry any time any place. and I`m not a lawyer. I asked this as I travel to Md. Va. and Del.at times so the ?? is to carry or not to carry.:confused: :confused:

Dan

[JetTroop]

That's a good point that LawDawg brings up about the bullets. If you are allowed to carry in another state under HR-218, then you are carrying as a private citizen and must carry under that states rules for private citizens with CCWs. All states have been addressing HR-218 as it's a big deal....

I carry Winchester Ranger SXT's (old black talons with no Teflon coating) in my off duty and duty gun (which we can and do carry off duty). I'm required by my agency to carry that ammunition off duty. What sucks is that I wasn't aware that New Jersey bans them, even by other law enforcement officers. But ignorance of the law is not valid, it's up to me to know the laws of the state I want to travel and carry in. Basically all HR-218 does is relieve you of the responsibility to seek out a CCW for every state you visit.

I should add this law was never enacted to allow more guns on the streets (legally of course) for the purpose of our "right to bear arms", but to put more weapons on the street in the hands of qualified law enforcement officers. Meaning, it was their intention (Congress) that things would be safer with more armed officers out there, whether as a deterrent or to take action. I'm sure most of us wont be taking action and instead be good witnesses but again, this wasn't some Republican push or NRA deal to allow everyone to carry guns, this law was enacted as a Crime Deterrent.

[LawDawg]

In response to what everyone is saying about PCCD and the ID cards they issue: 1.) Most counties are supposed to issue county photo ID cards stating the office/position you hold and the district you're in (9th, 1st, etc.). If you have this card AND the PCCD card and a badge, gun, business card...well hopefully you all get the point.
2.) Now I have to ask: Has anyone here personally had an out of state experience (besides myself)? I know for a fact that they didn't call PCCD, they called PSP! I was lucky enough to have contacts @ PSP who vouched for me. Another way to avoid this is establish a good repore with a local PD in your area (heck, it could even be outside your area--does every other cop know if Harrisburg is close to Erie??). If they want to know who to call and verify that you're an LEO, YOU provide a number of a Captain, Chief, etc. who will back YOU up. Don't be a victim of the circumstances. Thankfully they were going to call PSP anyway so it was fine but if they were going to call some agency I've never heard of, you better believe I'd make a suggestion about who to call.
You don't even have to go into a history lesson or explain all the differences between PA State Constables and the Constables in Texas, Massachusetts, Rhode Island or Alabama. You don't have to call in a legal expert to have someone understand that if you're a Constable from PA and you're in MA, that the office or positions you hold in PA may have very different duties and responsibilites. You need to know WHAT to say and HOW to say it. Again be professional. Know the specific statues or laws which will pertain to that situation that you find yourself in. There are ways to handle each of the issues which have been brought up here in a way which will work out just fine for you (unless you have done something actually wrong--like violate a local/state law somehow--which goes back to my previous post). Hope this helps someone out there avoid a sticky situation!!

[topcop38]

i'm in lawrence county and when i took my oath of office i asked for some type of ID card and they told me they do not issue any type of cards. all i have is my PCCD card and a badge that i bought myself.